Peter Kinderman
Lead Educator and Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Liverpool.
@peterkinderman
www.liv.ac.uk/psychology-health-and-society/staff/peter-kinderman
Location Liverpool
Activity
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Peter Kinderman replied to Tony Mo
@TonyMo Well... that is a VERY interesting thought! One I've thought about a lot... I think the answer (to the question of how productive mindful meditation differs from unhelpful rumination) is whether I'm able to be flexible and purposeful in where I focus my attention. If I'm able to choose - to decide where to focus my attention, to bring my attention back...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Val H
Yes. Perhaps. It's been a while... and I definitely need to re-vamp the course - a complete re-write (apart from everything else, we all look a lot older than our videos now!).
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Peter Kinderman replied to Elle H
"How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?"
"Two. One to change the bulb, and one to hold the penis... I mean father... I mean ladder!" -
Peter Kinderman replied to Val H
@ValH Interesting points. Yes; I think a lot has changed. Positively, we've become much easier in talking about mental health issues, and that's great. But I think the default conceptual model - that being anxious or depressed are things we can talk about without shame (good), but are still thought of as symptoms of an underlying illness, a flaw in the brain...
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I'd like to be neutral here... but I'm actually a little bit pleased !
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Good! ;-)
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@ValH I understand that. I am putting forward a vision for how things should (in my opinion) be organised, not a view on what things look like now. I understand that substantial change would be required, and - in all honesty - I'm not sure I'll live to see that!
Also... is the NHS being protected now? I know that local authorities are under-resourced (as... -
@Lyn(mr)williams I'm a scientist, and I completely accept the idea that my brain is a physical organ of the body, subject to all the laws of nature. But... there are differences between the hardware (the physical organs of the brain that do the business of learning) and the software - the ways in which that physical substrate is exposed to the almost infinite...
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Well... thank you... there are plenty more like this on FutureLearn and elsewhere... and keep reading. If (for example) you look at Jo Moncrieff's blogs (https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalance-theory-of-depression-still-promoted-but-still-unfounded/) you'll find she discusses mental health, but also spins off into philosophy and theories...
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@shyamolikundu Hmm... that doesn't always seem to be the case. About one person in five (20% of the population) now take psychiatric drugs. That's worrying... and not just for me: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prescribed-medicines-review-report
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@ElleH Ah... yes... so do I. And I think Joanna Moncrieff and other critics of traditional psychiatry would agree. The point is that these drugs do have effects - sometimes harmful, often beneficial - that for millenia (with plant products, now supplemented by manufactured chemicals) people have used to change their mood, or give them peace, or offer them new...
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Hi, good question! Well, very briefly, I believe that both the science (including developmental neuroscience) and the implications in terms of services and policy tend to support the idea of ‘neurodiversity’ - the idea that such personal differences are just that; differences- rather than illnesses or conditions to be contrasted with ‘normality’. Of course, we...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Chisom Okolie
Well, thank you!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Allan Watson
Oh dear! I’m sorry about that. I’ve tried to be clear about both the different ways in which clinicians and researchers interpret the evidence, and what my views are. But, the truth is, we haven’t got a single agreed position. It’s a disputed, conflicted, maybe confusing, area.
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Absolutely! I’m proud to be one of the authors of the PTMF : https://www.bps.org.uk/power-threat-meaning-framework/introduction-ptmf
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Well; that’s true - always check!
But… as a quick way to find general information… -
Peter Kinderman replied to Charlotte Stubbs
Thank you!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Paul C
@NicoleS This, too, is an important issue. One aspect of a "medical" approach to mental health issues is that it might (or might not) alleviate some of that blame / guilt. That is, instead of thinking "I shouldn't..." or "she shouldn't..." (for example; "I shouldn't neglect my children..." or "She should be more assertive...") we can say "I'm depressed, and so...
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@StephenNewton Hmm... While I'd agree that all emotions reflect chemical *activity* in the brain, the idea that these represent "imbalances" is problematic for me. To fall in love is (for me, at least) as much of a biological event as is becoming depressed. And if it's rational to be depressed (I find the current political situation in the UK and in the world...
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@StephenNewton I agree; it's a balance for each individual, and I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who finds medication helpful. I merely think that we need to acknowledge that many people find medication helpful and can't be doing with therapy, some people find a combination helpful, some people benefit from psychological therapy alone (even for very...
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I agree with all that you say; that the mind cannot be separated from the brain as if it has an independent existence. All our thoughts and feelings are biological events. But... and this was the point I as trying to make... whereas Kandel uses that fact to argue (in effect) that *therefore* mental health issues such as anxiety and depression must represent...
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Hmm... I checked it, and it seemed to work for me.
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Done... I think!
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Different people find different approaches helpful. While many people find medication and ECT helpful, others don't - and vice-versa. We need to choose the approach that works best for each person, but there is considerable evidence that (at least for many people) purely psychological or social approaches can be as helpful as medical treatments (and may well...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Anne M
Well... we included this scale partly to see whether things changed over the course of the course... I wouldn't read too much into it!
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Ah! Thank you... I'll check it out!
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That's fine!
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I wasn't suggesting you'd read it in one sitting... it's a resource ;-)
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Peter Kinderman replied to Virginia Craig
Thank you!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Paul C
@JoëlleBoehm @PaulC Thank you for these comments. I believe that one reason for the continued disagreement and tension in mental health (and it's very much a disputed field) is because the scientific questions ("to what extent is behaviour X a product of factor Y or factor Z?") are also philosophical or moral ones. And questions of free will, and the...
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Thank you
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Peter Kinderman replied to Ariel G.
Thank you... but wait until you've experienced the whole course; it might disappoint!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Katie White
@KatieWhite Hi, I think that's great - understanding the psychology and sociology of our mental health can only be helpful in such an important job. Well done!
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Hi Natalie, I hope you, your family and those you love are all safe and well. The eyes of the world are on Ukraine, and we are in solidarity with you.
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I guess a relatively 'inclusive' approach (one favoured by a lot of GPs and psychiatrists) would suggest - as you say - that many illnesses are powerfully influenced by social and psychological factors. Heart disease, diabetes, infectious diseases (famously TB), obesity... they're all strongly influenced by social factors (poor people suffer more). That's the...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Matthew Senior
Thank you. ... any suggestions for revisions or improvements?
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Good !
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I don't disagree... but I'd be willing to bet a large sum that Nick regards his model as a biopsychosocial model - it's very much common practice for mainstream psychiatrists to argue (and presumably believe) that their approach meets a definition of 'biopsychosocial', but.... at least in my opinion, there are many very different interpretations of what that...
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@SamColombinoJr. I absolutely agree. We're all different, and "viva la difference!". And, of course, events in the world impact on our brains and have physical traces... but one question that follows is whether that means that these consequences should best be thought of in terms of 'disorders' and 'mental illnesses'
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Well... part of the argument I'm trying to develop here is (as I hinted at above) that one part of Kandel's argument (pithily, that we're biological machines) doesn't necessarily lead to the second part - that mental health problems are therefore best seen as illnesses and treated with as such. For me, as a psychologist (and not a doctor) all psychological...
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@ElaineCollins Ah... Yes... I can see what you mean about my questions being parodic. I guess that's a fair criticism - it's easy for academics to snipe at each other rather than offer respect (and, indeed, rather than focus on the ideas, not the person). But I do think Kandel's ideas - can be challenged. Not because he's factually wrong (he clearly isn't),...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Sheri Grutz
Thank you. I have my own opinions, but - as an educator - I like to provide an opportunity to discuss and think about things from multiple perspectives (and then you'll come to the conclusion that I'm right!)
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Peter Kinderman replied to Alexandra Eshkoff
Well that's an interesting question.... and perhaps relates back both to the 'Understanding Psychosis' document from the British Psychological Society and the TED talk by Eleanor Longden. The experiences are there... but how we interpret them and make sense of them does (at least in my opinion) make a huge difference.
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Yes. I haven't met anyone who denies the importance of biological or genetic influences on human thoughts, emotions, behaviours. I guess what we're saying in this (and similar) documents is that ALL human behaviours have to be looked at in this light, not just so-called 'disorders'
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Peter Kinderman replied to Elaine Collins
I'll look into it... right now, most of my emails are about responses to COVID-19
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Peter Kinderman replied to Guillermo ALVES
The philosopher Epictetus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus) said something similar, which is often translated in phrases like: "‘it is not events that disturb us, but our interpretation of the events"
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Peter Kinderman replied to Catherine Lau
Yes. Two things here. First, poverty (or perhaps social disadvantage) as the 'cause of the causes' is a powerful idea. When you're wealthy, events (like losing your job) is less of a problem. So the 'cause' of distress may well be buffered. And, also, I like the idea of thinking about the relationship between genetic determinism and choice. Imagine that you...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Randy Krammer
Hi. Well.. the World Health Organisation (https://www.who.int/mental_health/policy/development/en/) certainly believes that that poverty is important. Perhaps it's also helpful to reflect on the fact that RELATIVE poverty and INEQUITY are important. That is, it really seems to matter how unequal societies are. In unequal societies, both mental health and...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Paula Fuller
Stick with it! I'm sorry about the terminology. I've tried to make it as understandable as possible without 'dumbing down'. I have to say that I've breached the 'readability criteria' for every step, so I KNOW that it's complex. All I can say is.. I've tried my best, and stick with it. There's some perhaps easier material soon.. but also some VERY complex...
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My personal view is that there are two ways in which there might be a 'genetic component'. As I'll say later in this course, I believe we need to separate out the fact that we're ALL genetically-programmed organisms (so our brains are dependent on genetic blue-prints) from the idea that genetic DIFFERENCES are responsible for differences between us in terms of...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Sylvia Rose Belmour
Thank you... Please, also, suggest other books that colleagues on the course might also like.
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Peter Kinderman replied to Tim Neubauer
Aw... thank you !
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Peter Kinderman replied to Khawla Riani
Thank you! I do like a debate... even an argument! But I would also hate to think I was spoon-feeding or lecturing!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Steve M
Hi. Thanks (everyone) for their comments... just a quick word about 'attitudinal fortitude' or 'resilience'. As you'll see in this course, MY personal stance is a social determinist perspective - so, while I think it's clear that we each differ (one from another) in terms of our psychological response to stress... I think those differences themselves stem from...
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@OliviaHackshaw Hi. Yes - I think continua models (in the plural, there are almost certainly many different continua on many different dimensions) have a great deal of legitimacy, and evidential support. Yes.
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How nice - thank you (I'm an academic, so I naturally like hearing that my work has changed someone's thinking).
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Ah... yes... we talk about that a lot more in Step 2.4 of this course... with a suggestion that Kate Allsopp and I made in the journal "Lancet Psychiatry"... but I won't give it all away yet !
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@JamesCalhoun I certainly think the fact that our psychiatric diagnoses reflect and change with social values (cowardice or post-traumatic stress; homosexuality; hysteria and women's rights; the recognition of the impact of trauma on our lives and the consequent use of labels like 'personality disorder') is fundamentally important. For me (this is my view, not...
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Apparently... Oprah Winfrey recently said the same thing (either channeling Jacqui Dillon or perhaps plagiarising her, or most probably simply on the same page at the same time): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oprah-winfrey-childhood-trauma-ptsd-60-minutes-report/.
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Yes... but also see my earlier comment. Identifying (measuring, classifying, naming and categorising) problems is clearly helpful. And I'm not at all averse to your idea of "... a spectrum of illness...". But I think it's at least arguable that we can develop systems for describing, measuring, classifying ... and then explaining and intervening... that don't...
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Ah... good point... yes... but (for me) the idea of 'diagnosis' has shifted (at least in dictionary definitions) to mean to classify something as belonging to the class "illness". Diagnosis is sometimes described simply as labelling, as classifying, as description. But, I think (feel quite strongly), that diagnosis is MORE than that. There are many types of...
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Just an additional (deliberately) tangential point... I think it's clear that psychiatric diagnoses can be helpful (even very helpful), but also clear that they have their problems. It can be argued that the relatively frequent revisions of DSM and ICD are attempts to improve their helpfulness and avoid their problems. So, we're often in the position of...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Andrew Bryant
James Davies's excellent book "Cracked" (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cracked-Psychiatry-Doing-More-Harm/dp/1848315562) covers some of this - with fascinating interviews with key players!
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Peter Kinderman replied to breakfree rut
Hi, I'm not 100% sure we'll be able to give the kind of practical answers that will address specific personal questions... but... there are a couple of documents that the British Psychological Society has prepared - and that we have made available on the course - which can be (and have been) practically helpful to individuals. I know this is pre-empting...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Aneurin Howorth
So.. for instance (and linked to the Harvard blog you cite) a representative blog (https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/shared-genes-link-depression-schizophrenia-and-three-other-mental-illnesses-201303015944 ) talks explicitly about "shared" genetic risk factors for a broad range of mental health outcomes.
Thats important, but it clearly isn't a specific link... -
Peter Kinderman replied to Aneurin Howorth
Hi,
There are lots of papers that claim - perhaps even have found - links between genetic variance and mental health outcomes. It doesn't take much of a search - on google or on more sophisticated search engines - to find both individual research studies and eatery news articles or claims by academics (much like myself) suggesting that there is reliable... -
Yes... And I think it's because there are those multiple factors all adding and subtracting and modifying each other that, overall, you see continua.
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@OliviaHackshaw Hi. I'm absolutely convinced (on the basis of the evidence) of a continuum (or, rather, multiple continua) model. I'm currently out of the office, but check out Dan Freeman's work on paranoid anxiety.
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I think this is important... it seems to me that it's clear that psychoactive substances (such as alcohol or medication) affect how we think or feel. And, as you say, things like under active thyroid functioning can equally (through hormonal mechanisms) affect our thinking, our emotions and our behaviour. Part of my argument, however, is that it strikes me...
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'Predisposition' is almost certainly better than 'cause'. There's an idea by the philosopher Mackie of "INUS" conditions - factors that are (if I remember it right) Insufficient (that is, not enough themselves to be causes) but Non-redundant (they do actually play a role) parts of a set of factors which is Unnecessary (the event could have occurred for other...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Justine Foster
We discuss problems that attract the labels of 'schizophrenia' and 'bipolar disorder' later in this course, and there's a (quite long, sorry) report from the British Psychological Society on the subject. It's certainly true that people are often prescribed medication for prolonged periods... it's a little more controversial as to whether we always "need" it...
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Ah... possibly... but it's always better to deliver more (rather than less) than you advertise (and you don't have to read absolutely everything!).
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Peter Kinderman replied to Susan O'Shea
Yes, absolutely - the World Health Organisation would agree (http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/mental_health/en/) defining mental health as: "as a state of well-being in which every individual realizes his or her own potential, can cope with the normal stresses of life, can work productively and fruitfully, and is able to make a contribution to her or his...
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Oops... sorry about that.
As far as I knew, there was an automated system limiting this allocation... I'll look into it.
Sorry ! -
Hi,
Yes, that's at least what I would like to think I'm arguing.
Absolutely understanding the implications of biological research - not least in terms of its implications for 'normal' psychology - but re-evaluating the metaphor of 'illness' and therefore the role and significance applied to that biological account. -
Thank you... in the interests of full disclosure... yes, you're correct, I do lean to the political left. But... there you go, that's what I believe, for right or wrong !
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Hi,
Yes - excellent point.
There are many ways in which a psychological focus can be harmful - we can ignore biological pathologies that desperately need treating, we can waste time and effort on ineffective treatments, we can re-traumatise people with ham-fisted attempts to dig into the past, there are plenty of charlatans around, and, of course, some... -
Peter Kinderman replied to Ella Smit
Hi Ella,
Thanks for the feedback. This was the first course I've designed, so perhaps I treated it more like an extended lecture, or lecture series. I tried to include a wide range of reading from other colleagues (including people with whom I disagree), but I guess all the 'hosting' was done by me.... Still, useful feedback, and hopefully teh next one will... -
Peter Kinderman replied to Susan Smith
Thank you...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Godelieve A
Hi,
When I give lectures / talks on this kind of materials, obviously some people disagree with my conclusions. But when people DO agree, they often ask how we should go about changing things.
I'm an academic, so I guess I tend to like arguments, discussions, debates.
But, ultimately, I don't think we'll get much change simply through argument.
I think... -
Thank you!
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Peter Kinderman replied to Godelieve A
Good questions... I have my views... but perhaps to be addressed later (!)
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Peter Kinderman replied to sabrena sulaiman
Well... yes... but surely everything psychological derives from operations of the brain. That applies to falling in love, choosing what career to follow, or voting (God forbid) for Donald Trump. I'm not sure that pointing out that everything we do is dependent on operations of the brain necessarily means that some (but presumably not all) our behaviours should...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Gary H
Well... I agree with you (I think my point of view comes over pretty clearly). And definitely for the (in my opinion) unscientific and pejorative (and frequently misogynistic) label of 'borderline personality disorder'.
But I guess if we accept any degree of influence of biology on our moods and thoughts and behaviour, I guess that means that biological... -
Later in the course (week four, I think, from memory) I try to explain how I have tried to resolve this issue... Personally, I think there must be something more than a correlation; I think that there must be some form of causal link between both biological and environmental factors and those problems that we call 'mental health' issues. For me (as I'll show...
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Peter Kinderman replied to Anne-Marie Randall
True... it is simplistic... it's main purpose, however was to encourage engagement and discussion... and it works (reasonably well) from that perspective.
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Peter Kinderman replied to [Learner left FutureLearn]
Yes... I tried not to give everything away in the first week... more reading (and more primary research papers) in the next few weeks' material.
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Peter Kinderman replied to Eric Malan
Thanks... interesting.
I once had dinner with a psychiatrist who told me about his client, a professor at a (very) prestigious university. The professor commented that his father and grandfather had both suffered greatly (and harmed others) through alcohol use, and so he (the professor) made a vow with himself that he'd never touch a drop of the stuff. His... -
Peter Kinderman replied to Jean Gibbens
Hi,
Thank you for sharing this. I certainly think that our biological make-up is important. The research evidence (from genetics, from twin studies, from the neurological and neurotransmitter studies) clearly suggests that biological factors are important. And I don't really disagree with the idea of biological vulnerability. I guess I would say two things,... -
Remember, too, that we designed this as a six-week course. And this is just week 1 !
We'll go into more details about biological factors in week 2, and into more depth about social factors in week 3. And then, in weeks 4 and 5, we'll try to integrate them a bit.
I guess I have tried not to reveal everything, discuss everything, in this first week.
And I... -
There are so many themes here (all great).
I don't want to add yet more reading, but there are lots of ideas relevant to this topic in the work of the philosopher JL Mackie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Mackie
He writes about the links between the mind, the brain and the body (discussed here), about the differences between 'cause' and 'blame', but he... -
We'll look into the sound, but it's an external site, so there may well be nothing we can do
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I agree !
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I like Philippa's point about "before" vs "after" in terms of our mental health and therapy. I prefer to think of therapies such as CBT in terms of learning how to understand and manage our emotions and thoughts rather than 'treating' problems. It's a slightly different emphasis, and - like Philippa says - tends to move us away from 'before and after' or even...
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Peter Kinderman replied to S Amarajyoti
Hi,
It's always risky to give advice for individuals in these kinds of circumstances (everybody is different; what might work for one person may well not work for another), and so we're still heavily reliant on individual professional help. But, in week 5 of this course, I try to offer some pointers towards practical psychological help. It won't be... -
Peter Kinderman replied to Patricia Falon
Ah... I'll need to check with technical colleagues about 'cloud reader'. We try hard to make .pdf files accessible, but apologies if not everything is workign perfectly
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Hi,
I just wanted to say... I'm really glad you're bouncing ideas off each other. One of the fantastic opportunities offered by online learning is the possibility to learn from each other, not just from the 'teacher'. So this is great. Just one additional point, which it that it's really easy to add hypertext links... -
I shall tell them ;-)
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It absolutely is complex... I've been studying this area for over 25 years... learning every day !
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Hi Jenny,
I don't think anyone - or at least not me and my colleagues - dispute the validity of research into the functioning of the brain, and the involvement of neurotransmitters (such as dopamine). As we'll discuss next week, when we look at biological models of mental health problems, it's obvious that the biological functioning of the brain underpins all...
