Home / Teaching / Decolonising Education: From Theory to Practice / Interview with science journalist Angela Saini about decolonisation of STEM subjects
Interview with science journalist Angela Saini about decolonisation of STEM subjects
In this interview Angela Saini introduces ideas around why STEM subjects are colonised and need decolonising.
[Music] [Music] [Music] welcome<00:00:15.759> to welcome to
welcome to um<00:00:17.359> the<00:00:17.680> decolonizing<00:00:18.640> education um the decolonizing education
um the decolonizing education course<00:00:20.160> um<00:00:20.640> i'm<00:00:20.880> going<00:00:21.039> to<00:00:21.119> be<00:00:21.279> talking<00:00:21.600> today course um i’m going to be talking today course um i’m going to be talking today to to
to angela<00:00:23.199> sayani<00:00:24.000> and<00:00:24.080> we're<00:00:24.240> going<00:00:24.480> to<00:00:24.560> be angela sayani and we’re going to be
angela sayani and we’re going to be talking<00:00:25.039> about<00:00:25.439> decolonizing<00:00:26.400> stem<00:00:26.800> science talking about decolonizing stem science
talking about decolonizing stem science technology<00:00:27.840> engineering<00:00:28.400> mathematics technology engineering mathematics
technology engineering mathematics so<00:00:29.920> welcome<00:00:30.320> angela<00:00:30.960> um<00:00:31.679> i'd<00:00:31.920> like<00:00:32.079> to<00:00:32.239> start so welcome angela um i’d like to start
so welcome angela um i’d like to start by<00:00:32.800> asking<00:00:33.120> you by asking you
by asking you what<00:00:33.840> does<00:00:34.079> it<00:00:34.160> mean<00:00:34.399> to<00:00:34.559> you<00:00:34.719> to<00:00:34.960> decolonize what does it mean to you to decolonize
what does it mean to you to decolonize the<00:00:35.920> curriculum the curriculum
the curriculum um<00:00:38.000> i<00:00:39.040> i<00:00:39.280> hesitate<00:00:39.840> because<00:00:40.079> decolonization um i i hesitate because decolonization
um i i hesitate because decolonization is<00:00:41.280> such<00:00:41.520> a<00:00:41.680> loaded<00:00:42.160> word is such a loaded word
is such a loaded word these<00:00:43.440> days<00:00:44.399> and<00:00:44.559> it's<00:00:44.800> one<00:00:45.120> that<00:00:45.360> feels these days and it’s one that feels
these days and it’s one that feels culturally<00:00:46.239> divisive culturally divisive
culturally divisive i<00:00:47.280> don't<00:00:47.440> think<00:00:47.600> it<00:00:47.760> necessarily<00:00:48.239> should<00:00:48.480> be i don’t think it necessarily should be
i don’t think it necessarily should be because<00:00:48.879> really<00:00:49.120> when<00:00:49.280> you<00:00:49.360> get<00:00:49.520> down<00:00:49.680> to because really when you get down to
because really when you get down to brass<00:00:50.320> tacks<00:00:50.559> what<00:00:50.719> it<00:00:50.879> essentially<00:00:51.440> means brass tacks what it essentially means
brass tacks what it essentially means is<00:00:52.399> that<00:00:52.559> we<00:00:52.800> understand<00:00:53.360> knowledge<00:00:53.760> not<00:00:53.920> just is that we understand knowledge not just
is that we understand knowledge not just in<00:00:54.239> a<00:00:54.320> one-dimensional<00:00:55.120> way<00:00:55.280> but<00:00:55.440> that<00:00:55.600> we in a one-dimensional way but that we
in a one-dimensional way but that we give<00:00:55.840> it<00:00:56.079> context give it context
give it context historical<00:00:57.600> context<00:00:58.079> social<00:00:58.480> context historical context social context
historical context social context cultural<00:00:59.359> context cultural context
cultural context and<00:01:00.800> that<00:01:00.960> we<00:01:01.199> understand<00:01:02.640> knowledge<00:01:03.280> exists and that we understand knowledge exists
and that we understand knowledge exists um<00:01:05.199> within<00:01:05.600> cultures<00:01:06.159> it's<00:01:06.320> shaped<00:01:06.640> by<00:01:06.799> the um within cultures it’s shaped by the
um within cultures it’s shaped by the cultures<00:01:07.439> that<00:01:07.760> it's cultures that it’s
cultures that it’s it<00:01:09.040> comes<00:01:09.360> out<00:01:09.600> of<00:01:10.320> and<00:01:10.720> if<00:01:10.880> we're<00:01:11.119> going<00:01:11.360> to it comes out of and if we’re going to
it comes out of and if we’re going to appreciate<00:01:12.400> that appreciate that
appreciate that then<00:01:13.600> we<00:01:13.840> need<00:01:14.560> a<00:01:14.720> broader<00:01:15.200> understanding<00:01:16.000> of then we need a broader understanding of
then we need a broader understanding of where<00:01:17.040> ideas<00:01:17.360> come<00:01:17.600> from<00:01:19.280> so where ideas come from so
where ideas come from so why<00:01:20.000> do<00:01:20.080> you<00:01:20.159> think<00:01:20.400> it's<00:01:20.640> important<00:01:21.040> to why do you think it’s important to
why do you think it’s important to decolonize<00:01:22.000> stem<00:01:22.320> subjects decolonize stem subjects
decolonize stem subjects well<00:01:24.560> i<00:01:24.720> think<00:01:24.960> it's<00:01:25.200> important<00:01:26.240> to well i think it’s important to
well i think it’s important to understand<00:01:27.680> where<00:01:28.000> ideas<00:01:28.400> come<00:01:28.640> from understand where ideas come from
understand where ideas come from um<00:01:29.920> and<00:01:30.000> this<00:01:30.479> isn't<00:01:30.640> just<00:01:30.880> about um and this isn’t just about
um and this isn’t just about decolonization<00:01:32.000> it's<00:01:32.159> about<00:01:32.560> it's<00:01:32.799> more decolonization it’s about it’s more
decolonization it’s about it’s more broadly<00:01:33.520> about broadly about
broadly about recognizing<00:01:35.600> that<00:01:36.640> scientific<00:01:37.360> questions recognizing that scientific questions
recognizing that scientific questions and<00:01:38.320> ideas<00:01:38.799> don't<00:01:39.040> pop<00:01:39.360> out<00:01:39.520> of<00:01:39.600> nowhere<00:01:40.240> they and ideas don’t pop out of nowhere they and ideas don’t pop out of nowhere they come come
come from<00:01:42.159> human<00:01:42.479> beings<00:01:42.960> who<00:01:43.200> are<00:01:43.280> raised<00:01:43.680> with from human beings who are raised with
from human beings who are raised with certain<00:01:44.240> sets<00:01:44.560> of<00:01:44.720> assumptions<00:01:45.280> and<00:01:45.439> biases certain sets of assumptions and biases
certain sets of assumptions and biases and<00:01:46.640> if<00:01:46.799> we<00:01:47.040> know<00:01:48.479> where<00:01:48.880> an<00:01:49.040> idea<00:01:49.360> comes<00:01:49.680> from and if we know where an idea comes from
and if we know where an idea comes from and<00:01:50.159> this<00:01:50.320> is<00:01:50.399> something<00:01:50.640> i've<00:01:50.799> been<00:01:51.040> calling and this is something i’ve been calling and this is something i’ve been calling for for
for since<00:01:52.960> my<00:01:53.360> books<00:01:53.600> came<00:01:53.920> out<00:01:54.240> is<00:01:55.119> what<00:01:55.280> i<00:01:55.360> would since my books came out is what i would
since my books came out is what i would love<00:01:55.840> is<00:01:56.000> that<00:01:56.240> every<00:01:56.399> time<00:01:56.640> you<00:01:56.719> learn<00:01:56.960> a love is that every time you learn a love is that every time you learn a scientific scientific
scientific medical<00:01:58.320> or<00:01:58.479> engineering<00:01:58.960> concept<00:01:59.759> that<00:02:00.000> you medical or engineering concept that you medical or engineering concept that you know know
know where<00:02:02.000> it<00:02:02.079> was<00:02:02.320> developed<00:02:02.880> how<00:02:03.200> it<00:02:03.280> was where it was developed how it was
where it was developed how it was developed<00:02:04.079> why<00:02:04.320> it<00:02:04.399> was<00:02:04.640> developed<00:02:05.119> all<00:02:05.200> those developed why it was developed all those developed why it was developed all those questions questions
questions and<00:02:06.880> that<00:02:07.200> in<00:02:07.360> turn<00:02:07.680> i<00:02:07.840> think<00:02:08.239> would<00:02:09.119> um and that in turn i think would um
and that in turn i think would um help<00:02:10.000> us<00:02:10.640> not<00:02:10.879> fall<00:02:11.200> into<00:02:11.440> the<00:02:11.599> kind<00:02:11.760> of help us not fall into the kind of
help us not fall into the kind of mistakes<00:02:12.239> that<00:02:12.400> scientists<00:02:12.800> have<00:02:12.879> fallen mistakes that scientists have fallen mistakes that scientists have fallen into into
into in<00:02:14.239> the<00:02:14.400> past<00:02:16.239> and<00:02:16.480> uh<00:02:16.720> following<00:02:17.120> on<00:02:17.200> from in the past and uh following on from in the past and uh following on from that that
that what<00:02:17.920> historical<00:02:18.640> evidence<00:02:19.200> is<00:02:19.440> there<00:02:19.760> of<00:02:20.000> a what historical evidence is there of a
what historical evidence is there of a colonization<00:02:20.879> of colonization of
colonization of science<00:02:21.680> subjects<00:02:23.760> all<00:02:24.080> scientific science subjects all scientific
science subjects all scientific knowledge<00:02:25.120> i<00:02:25.200> would<00:02:25.440> say knowledge i would say
knowledge i would say um<00:02:26.560> is<00:02:26.800> embedded<00:02:27.680> in<00:02:27.840> a<00:02:27.920> certain<00:02:28.319> set<00:02:28.480> of um is embedded in a certain set of
um is embedded in a certain set of assumptions<00:02:29.280> and<00:02:29.440> western assumptions and western
assumptions and western european<00:02:31.120> scientific<00:02:31.599> traditions<00:02:32.080> are<00:02:32.239> no european scientific traditions are no european scientific traditions are no exception exception
exception they<00:02:34.080> feel<00:02:34.480> different<00:02:34.959> because<00:02:36.080> science they feel different because science
they feel different because science believes<00:02:38.000> itself<00:02:38.319> to<00:02:38.560> always<00:02:38.800> be<00:02:38.959> objective believes itself to always be objective
believes itself to always be objective and<00:02:39.680> i<00:02:39.760> think<00:02:40.239> objectivity<00:02:40.879> is<00:02:41.040> possible and i think objectivity is possible
and i think objectivity is possible it’s<00:02:42.080> only<00:02:42.319> really<00:02:42.640> possible<00:02:43.040> though<00:02:43.280> if<00:02:43.360> you it’s only really possible though if you
it’s only really possible though if you examine<00:02:44.480> and<00:02:44.720> interrogate examine and interrogate
examine and interrogate how<00:02:46.480> ideas<00:02:47.360> were<00:02:47.599> shaped<00:02:48.000> by<00:02:48.160> the<00:02:48.319> cultures how ideas were shaped by the cultures
how ideas were shaped by the cultures they<00:02:48.879> were<00:02:49.120> in they were in
they were in and<00:02:49.599> try<00:02:49.840> to<00:02:50.000> mitigate<00:02:50.480> for<00:02:50.640> that<00:02:51.840> so and try to mitigate for that so
and try to mitigate for that so at<00:02:52.800> the<00:02:52.959> birth<00:02:53.200> of<00:02:53.280> modern<00:02:53.599> western<00:02:54.000> science at the birth of modern western science
at the birth of modern western science there<00:02:54.720> were<00:02:54.959> a<00:02:55.120> certain there were a certain
there were a certain set<00:02:56.080> of<00:02:56.239> cultural<00:02:56.959> assumptions<00:02:58.239> in<00:02:58.480> europe set of cultural assumptions in europe
set of cultural assumptions in europe that<00:03:00.080> came<00:03:00.319> to<00:03:00.480> underpin<00:03:00.959> for<00:03:01.120> example<00:03:01.440> the that came to underpin for example the
that came to underpin for example the science<00:03:01.840> of<00:03:01.920> human<00:03:02.239> difference science of human difference
science of human difference one<00:03:03.280> of<00:03:03.440> those<00:03:03.840> was<00:03:04.000> that<00:03:04.319> there<00:03:04.480> was<00:03:04.879> um<00:03:05.440> a one of those was that there was um a
one of those was that there was um a sexual<00:03:06.000> and<00:03:06.159> gender<00:03:06.560> binary sexual and gender binary
sexual and gender binary that<00:03:07.360> there<00:03:07.440> was<00:03:07.599> nothing<00:03:08.000> beyond<00:03:08.319> that that there was nothing beyond that
that there was nothing beyond that another<00:03:09.599> one<00:03:09.840> was<00:03:10.159> that another one was that
another one was that um<00:03:11.360> that<00:03:11.519> the<00:03:11.680> human<00:03:12.400> race<00:03:13.360> or<00:03:13.519> human<00:03:13.840> species um that the human race or human species
um that the human race or human species could<00:03:14.400> be<00:03:14.560> divided<00:03:15.040> into<00:03:15.280> discrete<00:03:15.840> groups could be divided into discrete groups
could be divided into discrete groups and<00:03:17.040> both<00:03:17.280> of<00:03:17.440> those<00:03:17.680> things<00:03:18.800> both<00:03:19.040> of<00:03:19.200> those and both of those things both of those
and both of those things both of those ideas<00:03:20.000> however<00:03:20.319> you<00:03:20.480> feel<00:03:20.640> about<00:03:20.879> them<00:03:21.040> do<00:03:21.200> not ideas however you feel about them do not
ideas however you feel about them do not exist<00:03:21.840> in<00:03:22.000> all<00:03:22.159> scientific exist in all scientific
exist in all scientific knowledge<00:03:23.200> cultures<00:03:24.080> so<00:03:24.239> in<00:03:24.400> different<00:03:24.640> parts knowledge cultures so in different parts
knowledge cultures so in different parts of<00:03:24.959> the<00:03:25.040> world<00:03:25.200> people<00:03:25.440> think<00:03:25.680> very of the world people think very
of the world people think very differently<00:03:26.239> about<00:03:26.480> those<00:03:26.720> things differently about those things
differently about those things and<00:03:27.599> i<00:03:27.760> think<00:03:28.159> um<00:03:28.799> that<00:03:28.959> is<00:03:29.120> one<00:03:29.360> example<00:03:30.080> of and i think um that is one example of
and i think um that is one example of how<00:03:31.840> just<00:03:32.000> one<00:03:32.239> example<00:03:32.720> there<00:03:32.879> are<00:03:32.959> many how just one example there are many
how just one example there are many millions<00:03:33.760> more millions more
millions more of<00:03:34.560> house<00:03:35.280> how<00:03:35.680> history<00:03:37.040> and<00:03:37.360> culture<00:03:37.760> has of house how history and culture has
of house how history and culture has shaped<00:03:38.400> scientific shaped scientific
shaped scientific understanding<00:03:40.480> so<00:03:40.879> how<00:03:41.120> do<00:03:41.280> you<00:03:41.440> think<00:03:41.680> that understanding so how do you think that understanding so how do you think that decolonization decolonization
decolonization with<00:03:43.680> particular<00:03:44.319> emphasis<00:03:44.959> on<00:03:45.120> stem<00:03:45.519> can with particular emphasis on stem can
with particular emphasis on stem can help<00:03:46.000> society um<00:03:48.959> i<00:03:49.120> think<00:03:49.519> all<00:03:50.319> knowledge<00:03:51.120> should<00:03:51.280> be um i think all knowledge should be
um i think all knowledge should be understood<00:03:52.080> in<00:03:52.159> the<00:03:52.319> round<00:03:52.720> we<00:03:52.879> need<00:03:53.040> a understood in the round we need a understood in the round we need a holistic holistic
holistic understanding<00:03:54.640> of<00:03:55.040> um<00:03:56.319> of understanding of um of
understanding of um of everything<00:03:57.519> that<00:03:57.680> we<00:03:57.840> learn<00:03:58.640> because<00:03:59.040> to<00:03:59.200> not everything that we learn because to not
everything that we learn because to not have<00:03:59.680> that have that
have that we<00:04:00.480> get<00:04:00.640> the<00:04:00.799> kind<00:04:00.959> of<00:04:01.040> problems<00:04:01.360> that<00:04:01.439> we<00:04:01.599> have we get the kind of problems that we have
we get the kind of problems that we have now<00:04:02.080> which<00:04:02.319> is<00:04:02.879> students<00:04:03.519> and<00:04:03.680> academics<00:04:04.480> look now which is students and academics look
now which is students and academics look at<00:04:04.720> their<00:04:04.959> fields<00:04:05.519> and<00:04:05.680> say<00:04:05.920> why<00:04:06.080> did<00:04:06.319> i<00:04:06.480> not at their fields and say why did i not
at their fields and say why did i not know<00:04:06.959> this know this
know this about<00:04:07.599> this<00:04:08.159> why<00:04:08.319> did<00:04:08.560> i<00:04:08.640> not<00:04:08.879> know<00:04:09.120> for about this why did i not know for
about this why did i not know for instance<00:04:09.680> that<00:04:09.840> the<00:04:09.920> field<00:04:10.239> of<00:04:10.400> statistics instance that the field of statistics
instance that the field of statistics emerged<00:04:12.400> out<00:04:12.560> of<00:04:12.640> the<00:04:12.720> british<00:04:13.040> eugenics emerged out of the british eugenics
emerged out of the british eugenics movement<00:04:14.000> and<00:04:14.080> the<00:04:14.239> reason<00:04:14.480> that<00:04:14.640> we<00:04:14.720> have movement and the reason that we have
movement and the reason that we have these<00:04:15.120> concepts<00:04:15.680> is<00:04:15.840> because<00:04:16.079> people<00:04:16.320> wanted these concepts is because people wanted
these concepts is because people wanted to<00:04:16.880> understand to understand
to understand how<00:04:18.239> to<00:04:19.759> map<00:04:20.079> human<00:04:20.479> difference how to map human difference
how to map human difference in<00:04:21.680> order<00:04:21.919> to<00:04:22.240> carry<00:04:22.560> out<00:04:22.720> these<00:04:22.960> kind<00:04:23.120> of in order to carry out these kind of in order to carry out these kind of ideological ideological
ideological policies<00:04:27.120> if<00:04:27.360> we<00:04:27.600> don't policies if we don’t
policies if we don’t have<00:04:29.440> that<00:04:30.320> broader<00:04:30.800> holistic<00:04:31.440> understanding have that broader holistic understanding
have that broader holistic understanding even<00:04:32.479> within<00:04:32.960> fields<00:04:33.520> stem<00:04:33.840> fields<00:04:34.080> like even within fields stem fields like
even within fields stem fields like mathematics<00:04:34.880> and<00:04:34.960> statistics mathematics and statistics
mathematics and statistics which<00:04:36.000> feel<00:04:36.320> so<00:04:36.560> removed<00:04:37.120> from<00:04:37.759> politics<00:04:38.479> that which feel so removed from politics that
which feel so removed from politics that feel<00:04:38.800> that<00:04:38.960> they're<00:04:39.199> completely<00:04:39.600> unconnected feel that they’re completely unconnected
feel that they’re completely unconnected to<00:04:41.199> culture<00:04:41.600> and<00:04:41.680> to<00:04:41.840> society<00:04:42.479> that<00:04:42.800> you<00:04:42.960> know to culture and to society that you know
to culture and to society that you know they<00:04:43.199> sit<00:04:43.440> apart they sit apart
they sit apart even<00:04:44.320> they<00:04:44.560> do<00:04:44.720> not<00:04:44.880> sit<00:04:45.120> apart<00:04:45.600> everything even they do not sit apart everything
even they do not sit apart everything has<00:04:46.960> its<00:04:47.199> roots has its roots
has its roots in<00:04:48.320> something<00:04:48.800> real<00:04:49.199> in<00:04:49.280> the<00:04:49.440> world<00:04:50.240> and<00:04:50.400> what in something real in the world and what
in something real in the world and what i<00:04:50.720> would<00:04:50.880> love i would love
i would love is<00:04:52.960> an<00:04:53.120> educational<00:04:53.759> system<00:04:54.160> an<00:04:54.320> academic is an educational system an academic
is an educational system an academic system<00:04:55.199> that<00:04:55.360> recognizes<00:04:56.080> that system that recognizes that
system that recognizes that we’re<00:04:56.639> all<00:04:56.800> better<00:04:57.120> off<00:04:57.280> that<00:04:57.440> way<00:04:59.040> thank<00:04:59.280> you we’re all better off that way thank you
we’re all better off that way thank you and<00:05:00.000> uh<00:05:00.320> what<00:05:00.479> are<00:05:00.560> you<00:05:00.720> working<00:05:01.120> on<00:05:01.280> right<00:05:01.520> now and uh what are you working on right now
and uh what are you working on right now well<00:05:03.440> i've<00:05:03.919> i<00:05:04.080> just<00:05:04.320> started<00:05:04.720> this<00:05:04.960> year<00:05:05.600> um well i’ve i just started this year um
well i’ve i just started this year um a<00:05:06.479> new<00:05:06.720> book<00:05:06.960> project<00:05:07.840> on<00:05:08.000> the<00:05:08.080> origins<00:05:08.639> of a new book project on the origins of
a new book project on the origins of patriarchy<00:05:09.360> but<00:05:09.520> it<00:05:09.600> won't<00:05:09.680> be<00:05:09.840> done<00:05:10.080> for<00:05:10.240> a patriarchy but it won’t be done for a
patriarchy but it won’t be done for a few<00:05:10.560> years few years
few years but<00:05:11.759> it<00:05:11.840> kind<00:05:12.000> of<00:05:12.160> synthesizes<00:05:12.960> a<00:05:13.039> lot<00:05:13.199> of<00:05:13.360> the but it kind of synthesizes a lot of the
but it kind of synthesizes a lot of the work<00:05:13.680> i've<00:05:13.840> done<00:05:14.000> already<00:05:14.320> around<00:05:14.639> race work i’ve done already around race
work i’ve done already around race and<00:05:16.639> gender<00:05:17.120> but<00:05:17.280> also<00:05:17.600> bringing<00:05:17.919> in<00:05:18.320> um and gender but also bringing in um
and gender but also bringing in um a<00:05:19.600> class<00:05:20.240> particularly<00:05:21.520> sounds<00:05:21.840> fascinating a class particularly sounds fascinating
a class particularly sounds fascinating thank<00:05:22.800> you<00:05:22.960> very<00:05:23.199> much<00:05:23.840> you're<00:05:24.080> welcome thank you very much you’re welcome
thank you very much you’re welcome lovely<00:05:24.960> talking<00:05:25.280> to<00:05:28.280> you
Amid widespread calls to decolonise STEM subjects, science journalist and author Angela Saini reflects on why this is important, and how future research and technology can benefit from expanded perspectives that draw in diverse histories and appreciate how scientific knowledge is constructed. She reminds that even fields that appear to be politically neutral, such as mathematics and statistics, employ key concepts originally developed by eugenicists and race scientists.
References
Superior: The Return of Race Science (4th Estate, 2019)
Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong and the New Research That’s Rewriting the Story (4th Estate, 2017)
This article is from the online course:
Decolonising Education: From Theory to Practice
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This article is from the free online
Decolonising Education: From Theory to Practice
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