Lisa de Kleyn
Academic researching environmental ethics, governance and diverse connections, with nature. Twitter: @lisadekleyn; www.linkedin.com/in/lisadekleyn/; https://cur.org.au/people/lisa-de-kleyn/.
Location Melbourne, Australia
Activity
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Thank you for alerting us to this issue. I have updated the article.
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Hi Annette, I feel these tensions. Every product or service has embodied resources, energy and human activity. This makes me question - Does my consumption make me complicit in the environmental and human impacts that have occurred as a result of the production of the product or service? What standard of living should we all adopt given the increasing global...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
I think that the person who you have described is ethical, and potentially fits the definitions of the common, private and public citizen. Ethics is about caring, caring is applied, and it will have unique expressions based on our situation, context and abilities. Our lives change, and we will express our ethics differently, at different stages.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
Hi Harshita, Feeling that you can't get involved in your city because you are a student, suggests that there is something wrong with the way that the city undertakes engagement. The needs of a student are as important as anyone else's needs.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Farah Ahmed
I agree Farah, and also think a universal basic income could shift some dysfunctional behaviour from dire circumstances into more stable behaviour and a more cohesive society.
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Brilliant. Thanks for the references!
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jef Jones
That's great. That's the goal. I'll look up the talk.
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The establishment of goals, targets and even universal principles are always done at a time, with the knowledge at hand, in contexts, with power relations. It's important to acknowledge this. Thanks for your example.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jef Jones
Does he account for the need for green space and adequate services too?
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Gabrielle Mesquita
That must be overwhelming to hear about Gabrielle.
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In a previous post someone made a reference to Thatcher having made a significant and enduring negative impact on England. It is concerning that individuals can have such a strong influence. Sound process with explicit ethical principles are so important at mediating such individual influences.
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Thanks Trish, I agree and one of my favourite aspects of this course is hearing about everyone's experiences and perspectives from around the world and using them to reflect on my own ethical frameworks and whether they stand the test of these different contexts.
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Hi Jane, these are great insights into the inconsistencies between what are considered minor discretions, that become part of a culture, compared to those that are judged as unjust and why.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Ameya R
Hi Ameya, that's a troubling situation and requires constant work to achieve justice.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to gg poulloin
It's incredible how an election can instate someone who has such a significant and long lasting impact. In Australia, we've watched successive Liberal governments systematically undo equitable and sustainable policies and programs.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Gabrielle Mesquita
Great insight Gabrielle. We discuss the universal basic income in week 4, step 13. It will be great to hear what you think of the discussion.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Keith Clifford (KC) Bell
Thanks Jenny! That's great to hear. I hope it gave you insights into the City of Yarra and principles that you can apply in your engagement with the city.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jef Jones
Smart and articulate insight Jef!
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
Welcome to week 5 everyone! It's your final week. You've done an incredible job working through the last 4 weeks and it will be great to continue our discussions in relation to citizen engagement.
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Great! I look forward to discussing your perspectives.
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I have the same impression with CSR. It's an add on, which means it's easy to cut. CSR needs to be embedded in all aspects of a business to change a culture. I've noticed that CSR often sits separately in a Public Relations department. One company I worked with kept moving the environment department from Accounts, to Operations, to Public Relations. I thought...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to gg poulloin
I agree that the bureaucracy want stability, and this also refers to policy stability and long-term planning. The bureaucracy also wants to be trusted, which doesn't always occur with a change of government.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Lisa de Kleyn
Hi Jef. It is illuminating to read about people's experiences of corruption around the world. I find that it's also a good test of the ethical frameworks that I align with, and how robust they are in different contexts and situations. I'm glad you enjoyed the week.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
Fantastic Harshita. It's great to see children represented.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to David Piper
I agree that the 'real economy' is fake. With environmental and human rights external to the market, costs are not being accounted for and prices are meaningless and ultimately harmful.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Denise Deerson
Signing on to principles and making pubic commitments is a good behaviour change tactic.
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Victoria is similar and committed to 25% by 2020 and 40% by 2025.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
The article says that the city's announcement follows Norway’s national government announcement of being climate neutral from 2030 by buying international carbon credits. Olso is likely to be incorporating offsets as well.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
Hi Harshita, is there anything like Nightingale in your city?
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Denise Deerson
Hi Denise, I agree with your comments about Melbourne!
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Richard Bradford
Hopefully the need to rely on volunteers will reduce. As we know with technology, it takes time to develop to a point when it's ready for the market, able to be produced at scale and there's demand and importantly, a regulatory framework to support investor certainty. This is even more difficult when competing with established technology, such as coal, which...
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It's such a significant problem, that low socio-economic groups not only have to deal with the struggles of their situation, they also have limited opportunities for culture, recreation and wellbeing.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Zarreen Kamalie
Thanks Zareen. Waste management and water have been top priorities in Victoria too, particularly during the drought. Victoria had an effective program encouraging Victorian's to limit their water use to 155 litres per day.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to gg poulloin
When you were in the Labour Party, how were decisions made? Was there a focus on the processes being fair, or were outcomes determined and their achievement considered more important?
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It sounds like the place where you live in your city is safe and well connected and there's sharp segregation of disadvantaged communities. I've heard mention of Melbourne being redesigned for walking and enjoying the city. The current gridlines are designed to keep people moving fast and efficiently between spending and working.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Si Egan
I agree Si. Wealth inequality and also lack of power are problems for stability.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Si Egan
The focus on private renting of small properties is a problem in cities where profit is the primary motive and developers are left to take the lead. I'm glad that you have affordable housing near the facilities that you need including your workplace.
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Hi Annette, it's fantastic that Dortmund has a plan that focusses on disadvantaged areas. So often these areas don't receive the attention they need as the power within them lack power.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Lydia Angela
That sounds like a good plan Lydia.
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Hi Annette, I hope that many of our leaders started with the intention of supporting the greater good. Unfortunately the political system we've created appears to be focussed on perpetuating power, and power is based on resources and numbers. I think many leaders make many trade-offs that they convince themselves are for the greater good, but end up being...
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I completely agree.
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Hi Nicole, I agree with you. There are so many aspects of life that need to change to support human and environmental rights and flourishing. We can't do everything, and I would argue that there isn't one problem or action in particular that will 'save the world'. I think the best way to look after ourselves and the world we live in, is to choose the issues...
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Hi Gilbert, the entrenchment of corruption can be devastating and fighting against it debilitating, however I agree that it's important to have discussions, try different models, celebrate successes, learn from the losses, work with others and keep moving towards ethics as best as we can.
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That's a fantastic example Gabrielle. I'm particularly impressed by the collaboration between the Netherlands and Germany. Humans have created artificial boundaries, which affect our responses to environmental issues, but of course, the environment doesn't recognise our boundaries. We need a larger scale response to human and environmental health for many...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jane Anderson
That's a positive story Jane! Making people accountable for their actions is critical in encouraging and maintaining ethical behaviour. We all make mistakes but ethical behaviour needs to become part of the culture and accountability sets us on that path.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Telford Vice
I wonder how decision-makers deal with cognitive dissonance in these instances. Whether they believe that economic development really is the way to prosperity for all (in which case they wouldn't feel cognitive dissonance); feel a responsibility to another person/organisation/group as justification for their actions; feel that they are making a trade-off for...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Telford Vice
Hi Telford, that's correct. The environmental justice frame seeks recognition justice - broad recognition of who is a stakeholder in an issue; procedural justice - accessible decision-making processes where participation is meaningful and influential; and distributive justice - such that the outcomes are fairly distributed in society. I think this is a...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jane Anderson
Hi Jane, the first part of your post sounds idyllic and I love the focus on the environment. It sounds like the environment is a part of the identity of the city.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Richard Bradford
Hi Richard, have you watched Joe Hurley's video in step 4.4? Joe talks about affordability as well as access to opportunity, quality and sustainability. I think expanding beyond the idea of affordability is critical to ethics and housing.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Severin D
That's an awful story Severin. Unfortunately governments have been known to look away until a crisis occurs, busying themselves with other seemingly more urgent, and politically expedient matters.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Gabrielle Mesquita
That's really disappointing Gabrielle. It's positive that the media is reporting cases. That's a start.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Zarreen Kamalie
Thanks Zerreen. That sounds distressing.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Gabrielle Mesquita
That's an interesting question. It points to Brexit and the US election. What result has democracy brought?
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Zarreen Kamalie
I'm committed to a strong process, with ethical principles set for the goals, rather than articulating specific, and hoping that can bring just processes and outcomes.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Herny Vines-Dreier
Hi Henry, that's what the research finds too. Apparently if the process is considered to be fair, people are more likely to accept the outcome, even if the outcome is not favourable to them. However, it people think the process is unfair, they are less likely to accept the outcome, even if it favours them.
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I'm glad you brought up age, as I think that an ethical city accounts for all ages. Young people are usually transported through cities, accompanied, and have confined, designated spaces. Older people as you say, are pushed further out for affordable housing and potentially further away from their community and services. Cities are made for people who are...
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Thanks for the explanation Ares. Has the mix of parties been strongly Liberal National for successive terms, or is this a recent change?
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Zarreen Kamalie
Hi Zarreen, has the focus on environmental sustainability been effective in Cape Town?
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Hi Socha, that's right. A bureaucrat recently said to me that community-led policy creates policy that sticks. It was a great insight.
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Hi Denise, that's fair enough. Statements alone don't create change. Statements need to be made, understood, accepted, implemented, measured and revitalised by people, and this needs to be supported by the institutions that we create.
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Hi Socha, that's a great point about understanding the transitions that cities and people are going through to be prepared to support people through times when they are most vulnerable.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Nerkis Kural
You're right. Zero sustainability and entrenching disadvantage.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Nerkis Kural
Thanks for sharing the article.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Nerkis Kural
Hi Nerkis, have there been any successful challenges to the cartel? I agree that political stability facilitates the chances of achieving equity and flourishing. Even with the stability that we have in Melbourne, we still have marginalised communities fighting for a voice in a system that excludes them. The difficulty in your city must feel impenetrable.
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
The survey is producing interesting results. There is clear agreement that cities should aim to keep money in their local economies and business as usual is broken. What did you think of the Universal Basic Income and the effectiveness of Corporate Social Responsibility?
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
I'm very interested in the Universal Basic Income as a way of recognising citizens, providing dignity for all people, and giving people space to explore a range of meaningful ways to engage with their city including spending time in the community, volunteering, furthering their education and being creative.
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
I really like this video. What do you all think of it? I agree that we're building structural inequality into housing and we need affordability, equity and liveability in housing based on location, size, function and sustainability that reflects people's needs and particularly those of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Daithi Walsh
With wealth accumulation as a primary motive in modern capitalism, and environmental and human rights excluded from the market, we really are in a bind.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Socha Sans-Jabaloi
Hi Socha, I'm also concerned about developer-led housing and the link between affordability, size, location and the profit motive. Urban density is increasing dramatically where I live, and as developers lead the design and construction of new apartment buildings, they are also influencing the social mix of the city. Large apartment blocks are being developed...
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Thanks Mohammed. I don't think people in developed countries should skip your comment. We have a unique opportunity to learn from each other in this forum, consider how our ethical principles apply in different situations, and learn from different contexts so that we can behave knowingly and carefully to support people and the environment.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Jef Jones
I like the framing of "providing housing" as opposed to what is actually in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights "(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property." I'm glad the belief brought effective action.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Vicky Grandon
Hi Vicky, I lived in the UK for a while and remember the housing situation as you have described it. Housing was unaffordable, to rent and buy, and many people expected that they would never own property, which maintains the deep disparity in wealth and opportunities.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Emma Mackenzie
Hi Emma, I agree there is a conflict between humans fulfilling their needs and wants and environmental protection or even flourishing. There is a theory that by humans identifying their wants and needs, it exposes environmental impacts, and from here, we can consider what we are prepared to accept in balancing our needs and aspirations and environmental impacts.
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
How did you go with week 2? Corruption is a difficult topic to discuss and it's easy to feel a sense of despondence and hopelessness when discussing problems. On the other hand, looking directly at problems is also empowering, because it is a critical step in finding solutions. In following weeks, we move to the future and solutions from different perspectives.
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Hi Zarreen. Great comment. I can also see that sustainability can be a privilege in Western society as products and services that are marketed as sustainable are generally more expensive and being sustainable can take extra time and effort, which not everyone has. A city needs to be careful about providing opportunities to be sustainable in fair ways so that...
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Hi Gabrielle, I agree and it's interesting to read people's posts in this course, from all over the world, and the consistency in concerns about poverty, housing, jobs, safety and transport to name a few.
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These are great measures Socha, and people's wellbeing implicitly includes environmental health, as environmental health is linked to wellbeing. I generally like to state environmental health too so that's is given prominence in planning.
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Hi Denise, Jason Byrne and Diana MacCallum published a paper on the lack of training about environmental justice in planning and suggested a path of including ethics in the discipline, so there are strong advocates in the planning space. The article is: "Bordering on neglect: ‘environmental justice’ in Australian planning", 2013, in Australian Planner.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Harshita C
Hi Harshita, I've also been thinking that government staff might see their responsibility as being towards their upper management, rather than towards the community, and this could be cultural.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Richard Bradford
Hi Richard, I agree about communication and recently, one of my research participants was talking about power and said that organisations need a clear theory of power, particularly, what power they have. Often organisations don't want to think about power in this way, as it seems 'dirty', but it is necessary for effective advocacy.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Karin Robertson
One of my favourite environmental justice articles is Jo-Ann Lee's "Gender, Ethnicity, and Hybrid Forms of Community-Based Urban Activism in Vancouver, 1957–1978: The Strathcona story revisited." The article talks about how Chinese women used cultural practices to turn negative perceptions about the area into perceptions of social capital and halted...
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
I like the way Steve Chadwick in the video said - "Once you start the journey of sustainability you never know where it’s going to take you." This can be the case with sustainability and community-led planning. It's brave to take this path and is a fantastic way to find creative solutions and empower communities.
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Thanks Socha, that's fascinating. It's unfortunate when political parties behave in those opportunistic ways. A situation has occurred in Victoria where a coal fired power station is being shut down in an area with high levels of disadvantage. This is good for the environment but a great concern for the community with the loss of jobs. Victorians have known...
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Denise Deerson
I agree Denise. It’s the triple bottom line and I also like the focus on regionalism. We create boundaries from a planning perspective, but really, the boundaries are artificial as move through places constantly with people, goods and environmental impacts as examples.
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Hi Socha, it’s almost cyclic that planning for Greater Melbourne talks about activity centres and density rather than sprawl, but the urban sprawl continues.
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Hi Gianfranco, it sounds like the lack of planning reflects Wendy Steele’s discussion of the Wild City in week 1.
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What do you think of the mosaic approach Richard? I believe that this works fairly well in Melbourne.
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Hi Socha, why did the people prefer to live in irregular places? Would there have been a way for the government to investigate this and then create infrastructure and social assistance to support their needs?
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Denise Deerson
Hi Denise, I believe that's a critical question, and before that, who is brought to the table is critical. Many groups are omitted, and particularly those who are marginalised, vulnerable or even disadvantaged from a sense of their proximity to place and processes.
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Hi Annette, I'm not vegan as you know, I discussed eating meat above, but I've witnessed the situation you've mentioned whereby people get annoyed at vegans. I agree with you that it's cognitive dissonance. Your ethical principles and veganism don't negatively impact others, and in fact are a strong willed, attentive and caring way to have a positive impact on...
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An incredible person and an incredible legacy.
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Hi Simon, the elected leader sounds fantastic and one of the participants in my research was reflecting recently about how few leaders we've had that have developed intelligent and ethical policies and worked to achieve them, regardless of personal interest and established power.
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Hi Rachel, it's difficult because pricing produces perverse outcomes as environmental and human rights are external to the market. This can make be sustainable and healthy a privilege.
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Hi Denise, It is incredibly difficult to live in this world without cognitive dissonance and particularly with regard to sustainability. I agree. I also experience cognitive dissonance when I eat meat. Also, my attention to sustainable behaviours tends to drop when I'm particularly busy, for example, driving rather than taking public transport to save time....
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Ruth Deans
Thanks Ruth, transparency and accountability are critical for addressing corruption and it's great to hear that Bielefeld has a comprehensive process.
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Power is persuasive.
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Lisa de Kleyn made a comment
We have strong agreement on the survey. I was going to type out the responses but then I didn't want to influence the results. It will be great to hear people's reflections on the results in the coming weeks.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Alice D
Hi Alice, I've seen and been involved in many 'tick box' consultations. They're disempowering and engender distrust.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Valerie Sim
I agree Valerie and would like to see stated ethical principles informing process and being required as part of outcomes.
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Lisa de Kleyn replied to Ntholeng Mohajane
I agree Ntholeng, and it has the added benefits of being empowering and encouraging acceptance of decisions.
